Kerry Wood, host 0:07

This is the Pursue Holiness Podcast, an official podcast of the North Carolina Conference of the Global Methodist Church. We are engaged in scriptural holiness, applying it to everyday life so that we can have the new life in Jesus bringing forth so richly and powerfully within us that all we are and all that we do accurately reflect the true character of God. Thanks for being with us today. Hello friends, it's Harry

Intro Ryan Barnett and Matt Reynolds

Kerry Wood, host 0:39

Wood with the Pursue Holiness Podcast, the official podcast for the North Carolina Conference of the Global Methodist Church. And today we're gonna get to have an incredibly wonderful conversation around a book that has just come out called Christ for All, Every Methodist and Evangelist. It is edited by Ryan Barnett, and he is my guest today. And one of the contributors to this book is also with us, Matt Reynolds. And so we're excited to have both of you guys with us. And Ryan, why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about who you are and what led you to where you are?

SPEAKER_02 1:14

Yeah, sure. Carrie, thanks so much for having us on to talk about this book and the work of evangelism in the Global Methodist Church. Uh, I'm a pastor in Texas. I'm currently serving as the COO for the Mid-Texas Conference of the Global Methodist Church. And I also serve as the senior advisor to the Wesley House of Studies at Truett Seminary located at Baylor University, which is where this book really began, was between our work uh there at the seminary, but also our work in the Global Methodist Church. Um, we were preparing to lead a conference for uh evangelism, for training, teaching evangelism for lay people and pastors. And one of the things that we wanted to do was make sure that it wasn't just another conference that people attend and then get some good head knowledge and walk out and feel learned. We wanted to make sure it had some sort of lasting effect and replicating effect in the life of our churches. And so we partnered together with uh the people at Francis Asbury Society to create this resource that is being delivered to that conference and to the attendees, but is also then widely available for churches to pick up and begin to use in their local churches. So hopefully it will have that kind of multiplying effect of training and teaching. We're really excited about it.

Kerry Wood, host 2:39

Very good. So, what is a COO? What does that role mean? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Yeah, I'm a conference operating officer. I serve uh Bishop Lee Hittie Gregory in her role as the conference superintendent of the Mid-Texas Conference. Of course, when she was elected uh to the Episcopal Office in 2024, she went from being a full-time conference superintendent to a part-time conference superintendent. And so I moved from my post uh where I was the senior minister at First Methodist in Waco and um came into this role to help with the conference, the governance and leadership, and to help um support her work uh as she's out doing things all around the world. Right. And uh help keep the home fires burning here in mid-Texas with our more than uh 240 churches and all the wonderful growth and work that we see God doing here.

Kerry Wood, host 3:35

Fantastic. Well, thanks for sharing that. I know every annual conference has their leadership structures just slightly different. So here in North Carolina, we have a conference superintendent and an associate conference superintendent. Um, and so I I would assume that your conference operating officer is probably similar to what our associate superintendent is in supporting the work uh for everybody that is a part of the leadership team there in the Mid-Texas conference.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yeah, Carrie, that's exactly right. And um, you know, I've had many different titles since we started the GMC uh executive officer and provost, and uh you name it. Uh I've kind of held the title and we finally landed here on this one because that's the way the book of discipline described the the role uh in 24. Now in 26, when we get to Johannesburg, they may change the title again, and I'll just keep changing my business cards. As long as I get to keep doing the work in ministry, I'll be happy.

Kerry Wood, host 4:33

Yeah, absolutely. My my my granddad used to say, you can call me anything you want, just don't call me late for dinner. That's it exactly. Well, Matt, you you've been a little bit quiet for us. So let me uh pull you into the conversation. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to be part of this project with Ryan.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Yeah, thanks, Carrie. Uh, it's great to be with you all. And um, I I live in Ohio, uh near Dayton, Ohio, and I lead a ministry called Spirit and Truth, and we're an equipping and renewal ministry in the Wesleyan tradition. Uh, we do uh training and renewal uh with churches really all over the country, some globally as well. And um I got connected really with, I guess, Mid-Texas conference. I came and spoke at their annual conference last year, and one of the things that we focus on in our ministry with Spirit and Truth is trying to mobilize people for evangelism. And and that really comes out of some of my own story, the ways that God convicted me as a Methodist pastor, um, even just in my own life, ways that I I really wasn't personally engaging in evangelism and the way that God grew me and really challenged me to step into that more fully. And so, so with our ministry focusing on that, um, I kind of end up in circles where uh things around evangelism are bubbling up, and I was really delighted when Ryan reached out and asked if I would uh consider uh speaking at the conference that's hosted there um soon at Truitt. I'm really excited for that. And then um and then the double blessing of just getting to be a part of this book project, which was something just so near to my heart that I was, you know, you know, instantly like, yeah, I would love to be a part of that because I really think this is um this is so needed within our global Methodist movement, really the larger Wesleyan movement in general. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 6:29

Terry, I I want to say something about about Matt and his involvement in this project at the conference. You know, um God just uses things along the way to inspire you and to to put thoughts in your mind and let you follow these trails. And when Matt came and spoke at our Mid Texas conference, he really struck a chord with our people. People who know Matt um know that his sincerity um and his true compassion that emanates out from his very heart and soul for loving people into relationship with Christ is just contagious. And after he spoke at our annual conference, um, we began to get reports from our lay people in particular about taking the practical steps and suggestions that Matt made uh in their own life. In fact, we we read a letter to the editor of a local newspaper that was written by an 80-plus-year-old member of a congregation who talked about his experience at the conference and being encouraged by the speaker to invite people he saw to prayer, and he did it on the street to a stranger that seemed to him to be having some struggles. And he just talked about how grateful he was for the Global Methodist Church and for that speaker. He he didn't name you Matt, but that speaker who came, we know who it is, God knows who it is. That speaker who came and challenged us, and I can't believe I didn't do this sooner. And uh for the rest of my life, this will now be a practice. And so that stirred in me that we we have to help do more to help our folks in in practical, applicable ways, uh, that they can experience the power of sharing Christ because I think they want to. And so it's just a matter of reawakening some of that, those muscles. And so, in many ways, you know, Matt was an inspiration for this project uh in just my first phone call when we decided to start putting it together.

Kerry Wood, host 8:45

That's great, that's wonderful. Well, I have some background connections to both of you. I grew up in Texas, Ryan. So I'm very familiar with uh the culture there in Texas. And uh one time I thought I was gonna be a baler bear and uh couldn't afford it, so I went to a state school and said, but uh yeah, I had had wonderful memories of growing up in Texas. And Matt and I known each other actually for quite some time. Um, I I can remember that first conversation that we had together when uh you were just getting spirit and truth, just just in the dream stage of trying to figure out what this thing even looks like. And I just praise the Lord for all the ways in which I have seen God work through the ministry that Spirit and Truth does. Uh, the the way that you are helping us to recapture that enthusiasm and that connection to what God is already up to, and we've just been missing it for so long. So I deeply appreciate what both of you are bringing to the table with this book. Uh Ryan, tell me a little bit about the title,

Christ for All: How the Project Started

Kerry Wood, host 9:49

Christ for All, Every Methodist and Evangelist. Was that the beginning of your thoughts, or did that come after you started putting this together?

SPEAKER_02 9:57

You know, it really came, it really came after we started putting it together. But uh, as as I began to read the work um that the co-contributors were making, the thing that kept coming back to me was um we really do want to be a movement that offers Christ to all. We we have a little note there in the in the foreword. We recognize that to belong to Christ takes an act of will, confession of faith, confess with your lips, believe in your heart. But that our responsibility is to offer Christ to all. Uh, and really reconceiving the idea that uh of the professionalization of ministry to say, no, every Methodist is an evangelist. Uh from Go, this was part of our DNA, and to recover that idea that uh mobilizing the mass of our body to do the work of Christ, fulfill the Great Commission. So really the title did, I mean, it it truly emerged out of the writings, and of course, it's deeply Wesleyan. The notion from both Charles's hymnity and John's writings, the idea that we would that we would have a vision as large as presenting Christ to all, having nothing to do but saving souls. And so we really felt like it um spoke into our Wesleyan uh identity. And you'll you'll know uh this really is uh it's a book that any Wesleyan or Methodist could pick up, and I think it will be useful. But we were intentional to say, you know, this is a new moment in the life of the Global Methodist Church. And so all of our contributors are leaders in the Global Methodist Church. It's written by Global Methodists for Global Methodists, for the moment we're in, for this great time of in-gathering in the world. And so I think it's something that we can really uh all grab onto and participate in.

Kerry Wood, host 12:04

Absolutely. So, what was the genesis of the idea of the of how you structured this? That this is one of the most unique uh books on evangelism that I've seen, in that in each of the essays, you have both the opportunity for a person to do individual reflection, engagement with what is God speaking into me in this moment. But then you also have this very communal component to it where you at the very front say, hey, do this with somebody else. Don't do this just on your own, do this with others. And then you give us the weekly challenges. And uh, I don't, I'm not gonna give away what those challenges are. Somebody's got to look at the book to see them, but but every challenge is very practical. It's not just this theoretical thing, it's actually putting actions into our thoughts and our processes. Where did that idea of organizing the book, where did that come from?

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Yeah, um, I mean, first the idea that we would reflect and internalize the material that we're receiving. Um Bishop Mike Lowry says that uh the study of our doctrines, of our theology is not wasted time on mission. It actually is, he will describe it like as the soil that mission comes up out of. And I think global Methodists are figuring that out. What we we have to know what we believe in why, uh, and recover some identity pieces. So we did want people to have to wrestle with, okay, so if this is what scripture is saying and this is what the witness of the church historic has been, what does that say to me? How do I internalize that? How do I uh how do I file that into my own identity? But of course, we don't want to just leave it there. Methodists historically have gotten really good at going to studies. Like, oh, I want to grow as a disciple, what should I do? Sign up to go sit in a classroom and learn from a master teacher. And then and then what? You know, so that was that was the the then what is the is the practical challenges is like, okay, then go try it. Just

Challenge: Go Try It

SPEAKER_02 14:22

make an attempt, and we're gonna help you so give you some suggestions, ideas on how you could put that into practice. And it's not that our ideas on how to practice these are you know the only ways or maybe even the best ways, but what they are are supremely practical, there's something that can be accomplished, and it gives people an opportunity to go, okay, well, what worked, what didn't work, let me process that, and then maybe adapt it for my gifts and skills, my community. And and as you said, that processing, we strongly encourage it to be done in community. Um we we learn better, we grow better, we are uh we are accountable for our own discipleship in community. I mean, this is another recovery of identity. Right. I I hope that small groups in science school classes that do this really are looking at each other and going, Who did you share Christ with this week? No one? Oh, why? We why did you not see anyone to pray with? You don't have a grandkid that is living apart from Christ that you wanted to encourage this week. You know, we need to do that for each other um to hold us to our best practices and to the persons that God has called us to be. So that's that's why the personal reflections within the text, it's why the practical challenges and really why we want to encourage it to be undertaken in community. I'll just say one other word. I mean, even Jesus tells the disciples, go out together to do this work. So, you know, uh let's face it, uh I'm more likely to maintain my Christian conviction in my speech and action if one of my parishioners is standing next to me, versus if I'm alone. Or I mean, you know, if you're on an airplane and the person sitting next to you says, you know, what do you do for a living? Oh, I'm a pastor, or you know, tell me about yourself. Oh, I'm a Christian. Once that information's out there, you're like, okay, well, now I'm representing Christ.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

So having a having a gospel partner next to you in the work with you, it it helps you to be who you want to be for Christ, I think.

unknown 16:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

And I may have more uh you know thoughts on that as well, as as one who is uh such a uh uh wonderful practitioner of these things.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Well, I agree, I agree with everything that you said, Ryan. I mean, one of the things we've seen over and over after doing this training with uh dozens of times with all different kinds of churches is that people, you know, we learn by doing. And especially as adults, you have to engage in the practice of something to really absorb what it is you're learning. And we, I think, have been so good, uh certainly in the West, in in North America in particular, I just uh sort of doing study after study, as you said. And like we'll sit in a classroom and talk about evangelism for the next 20 weeks, but when we actually do something about it, and that for me, you know, I I realize that in my own life, and so we uh I think I love the way that the book is structured that way. Um, and that's something we've seen to be so powerful in people's lives, just like the story you shared earlier about uh the older gentleman, like something happens when you even regardless of how simple the step may be, and just like offering to pray for someone is not like the end-all be-all method, but you've got to take some step, and when you start to have spiritual conversations with people outside of your church bubble, and you realize, oh, this is not as scary as I thought it was gonna be, or God just showed up, you know, like and I didn't think I had the right words, I didn't feel like I knew enough, and yet God still showed up and it was okay. And you you start to see the beauty of that and the way that God can use you, um, that starts to change everything.

Kerry Wood, host 18:41

Yeah. Well, I I think that kind of goes into, you know, you you wrote in your essay,

Everyone has a testimony

Kerry Wood, host 18:47

every follower of Jesus has a testimony. And that's probably a hard thing for people to uh to comprehend, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Yeah. Well, our testimony is one of the most important uh tools that we have for evangelism. You know, I mean, this is our job as Christians is to bear witness to who Christ is and what he's done. And the most sort of palpable example we have is what has he done in my life, you know. And uh, you know, as we work with with folks in a lot of places, I do think a lot of church folks, if they didn't, you know, if they weren't in prison at some point, they think they don't have a testimony. Well, you know, I praise God for those testimonies, but uh every testimony is valuable. And if if you belong to Jesus, you have a testimony whether you realize it or not. And if you can't identify any way that your life is different because of your relationship with Jesus, that might be actually a pretty convicting uh thing to wrestle with. Like if you can't come up with any way that my life is, you know, I could talk about the ways that the the differences that Jesus has made in my life, um that would be a troubling thought to me. And so I think part of just the recognition and the power of testimony is recognizing sharing your testimony doesn't mean that you have to share your whole life story with every person that you meet. In fact, most of the time that's not the way that testimony works. But talking to a coworker who's going through a really hard time with you know, uh one of their kids is really struggling and sharing, you know, I went through something like that, and I don't think I would have made it through if not for Jesus. Well, that's that sentence is a testimony that you just said. You know, exactly you're pointing to the work of Christ in your life to sustain you and to give you peace that you couldn't manufacture for yourself. And so um I think we just have to sort of broaden our understanding of what it looks like to just constantly testify to Christ, and we just need to be sharing sort of like micro testimonies all of the time. Yes.

Kerry Wood, host 21:00

Yes, well, just as people can get excited and they will talk about, well, did you see that game last night? I mean, we we just finished with the uh the NCAA uh men's basketball and women's basketball tourneys. People are having conversations about that. They don't repeat everything about Michigan's season all the way through to delivering the national championship. They'll talk about this 15 seconds that made the difference in the game. Well, if we're able to do that in a secular sports world, surely we can have enough self-awareness and God awareness at the same time to see where those equivalencies are in our own lives. And it doesn't have to be a championship level experience, it can be something as simple as you know, God slowed me down and I went through a red light, and as a result of me being in that red light, I then missed the accident that happened 14 seconds after I passed through the intersection. You know, those are all the ways in which we can sometimes see God at Work in very mysterious ways and be willing to share that when the appropriate time shows up.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

You know, I think that's a great analogy, Carrie, because one of the things that becomes a barrier for so many folks is they think they don't know enough to share their faith. Like I don't know enough theology, I don't have enough Bible verses memorized, like whatever these barriers that we create for ourselves. But when you're talking about a basketball game, like you're you're not expecting to like be able to tell someone about the national championship game. You don't have to be able to break down the complexities of zone defense. You're not, you're not like having to know every intricacy of the game of basketball to be able to tell someone, you know, the highlights of what has happened. And the reality is most of the people you share with aren't looking for that anyways. Right. They want to know like, is your life different because of this Jesus that you're talking about? And so um, yeah, I think that's a great analogy. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't learn to defend our faith, learn things like apologetics, try to learn the scripture. Absolutely. We should just continue to build all of those tools um sort of in our tool belt. But the reality is God doesn't really need your sort of smarts or ingenuity to win someone to Christ. They're not you can't reach in and change somebody's heart, anyways. You know, you that only the only the Holy Spirit can do that. So your job is just to be a vessel and just to bear witness to what you've seen. That's what a testimony is, just bearing witness to who God is and and how He's changed you. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

I want to I want to say something about that. Um, you know, um the chapter that that Matt wrote was uh the scripture we selected for that was John 9. And you know, in that wonderful chapter, Jesus uh heals a man that is uh excuse me, yeah, Jesus heals a man that's uh blind and he's being interrogated. Who is that guy? What is he, you know, who do you say he is? Is he this? Is he that? Explain. They're asking him for advanced apologetics. And he finally, I mean, this guy's like, look, I don't know. Uh ask him, but here's what I do know. I was blind, now I see, and that's his testimony. And I the thing I want to highlight for people is at the end of the day, honestly, when you're sharing Christ, most people, no matter what they say, are not resistant to Christ because they need an advanced apologetic. So one of the things that I've learned to ask people who want to argue about whether Jesus is the son of God, the Messiah, the savior of the world, is I'll ask them, hey, let me just ask, if I'm able to present a historic biblical, logical, reasonable case that makes it more likely, just based on evidence and reason and logic, that Jesus is the Son of God and the Savior of the world, than not. Are you willing to immediately give your life to Him, do whatever it takes to change everything about your identity? And the answer is almost always no. And so then you're able to say, okay, then it's not about logic and reason. Tell me what's in your heart. And then you hear from people a searing loss, grief, anger about something that's happened. And so I just want to say to our people, even if you don't feel like you're an expert in theology and doctrine, I mean, keep studying, don't get me wrong, it's good, but you don't have to be to share Christ is to be willing to do what Christ does for us, to put his arms around us and to walk with us.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Enter into people's uh enter into people's lives with them. And the way you do that, it one of the ways you do that is just what Matt has described. You share your life with them. I was blind, yeah, and now I see the difference was I let Jesus in.

Kerry Wood, host 26:06

Yeah, exactly.

Being faithful

Kerry Wood, host 26:08

And I was I was recently at uh an event with uh with JD Wald from Seedbed, and he talked about you know, faith is spread from a person to a person, from a person to a person. And I think your book kind of gets at that same level of this is what this is about. It's not about me winning anything, it's just about me being faithful. And I think Matt, one of the best lines in your essay was your only job is to be faithful in giving witness to what you have seen and heard. That's it. Yeah, I love that line.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

Well, we get hung up on, you know, we're a very results-oriented kind of uh culture. And when we think about evangelism, sometimes what paralyzes us, we think that we're like responsible for the results. But that's that's I I mean I said it earlier. You you can't change your own heart, let alone somebody else's, apart from the power of the spirit. So you're not responsible for the results, you're just responsible to be faithful, to bear witness with the people that God brings across your path, you know. And and it's there's a lot of freedom when you recognize that. Like I'm I'm just gonna be honest about who Jesus is and how he's changed my life. And some people are going to respond to that and some people are not, and it's really not my job to figure out why that is and who is good, which one is gonna be which, you know. Like I I have to just be faithful to what God is calling me to do and and then leave the results to him. And I I mean, I think we see that with the disciples, certainly in the gospel accounts. You know, there's different results when they're trying to be faithful. And even with Jesus' own ministry, people respond to him differently, you know, uh as he goes about his ministry. And some people uh fall down in worship and some people walk away, like the rich young ruler. And he's offering the same kingdom message, you know. Right.

Kerry Wood, host 28:10

Yeah. And Ron, you you you talked about the defeating of the 5,000 in your essay, and I hadn't really put it together in the way that you described it, but I I can't, I'm I didn't write it down, so I'm gonna have to paraphrase, but you said something along the lines of we don't know how the miracle happened, whether it was in the Jesus breaking or in the disciples distributing. And as I thought about that, I thought, you know, that is a really wonderful way of thinking about what that miracle was, because Jesus said the he set the whole thing up by saying, you give them something to eat. Well, even after Jesus provided what they were going to eat, they still did the work. They were giving them the food, and that was how we ended up with 5,000 plus being fed, 12 backets left over. And in many ways, it really doesn't matter whether the miracle was in Jesus doing the breaking or in the disciples doing the distributing, it was the combination of both that the miracle was experienced. Talk a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Yeah, well, first let me just uh say that that was actually Bill Kears' essay.

Kerry Wood, host 29:24

Oh, that was Bill's, okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

No, but but uh but good to point it out. I mean, Bill is the president of Francis Asbury Society and just uh a really renowned leader in evangelism. And uh I I was taken by the same thing, Carrie, that he talked about. And for me, what struck me in Bill's writing there was uh again, it goes back to something Matt just said, but we're responsible for the obedience. You know, I I have to believe because they were human that the disciples, when Jesus said, take this bread and break it and pass it around and feed them all, they thought, okay, that seems like a good plan. That's gonna work, you know. Like there's not even a crumb for each person. You we we can't even, we can't, we can't break it so small. It would be molecules, you know. But but here's the thing, they did it. They just did it. They said, okay, Jesus, because you say so. Now, listen, here's what I think that I feel that way. When I read in scripture that the church is the hope of the world that this is God's big plan for the redemption, is a bunch of saved sinners, you know, uh uh going out and sharing the good news. I'm like, this doesn't seem like a good idea. Uh, surely God has somebody who can manage a social media account or something. You know, there's got to be a better marketing strategy than Ryan Barnett's testimony. My God, we're in trouble. You know, like that's how I feel when I read the Great Commission. I'm like, God, if I am your best plan to make this happen for every tongue tribe and nation, I think, but but okay, you're God, I'm not. Let's go. I'll do my part, you do your part, and let's see what happens. And so I do think that what Bill writes there is so moving, or at least it moved me, to just saying, okay, I'm gonna try it. And maybe hopefully, people who are reading the book who think, like, I can't, you know, I can't go to a laundromat and tell someone about Jesus, but okay, I'll try it. You know, who knows? Entire families may get saved. Generational, uh, like whole generational lines get moved when those kinds of things happen. And is it, you know, this is the mystery and the wonder of God is that He chooses to work through our obedience.

Kerry Wood, host 31:58

Right. Yeah. Well, I was just uh listening to a story of a man who's now a pastor who was nine years old and living in Iran when the 1979 Iranian revolution took place. He was Shia Muslim, his whole family was Shia Muslim. They eventually uh were able to make their way to the United States. Um his dad opened a restaurant, and the the the pastor was he's telling the story of his uh teenage years. He had a friend who invited him to go to church. And he was like, Well, yeah, I'd be happy to, because you told me the five best-looking girls in the school are going to your church. So I'll I'll do that. But my dad will never ever let me go to church. Well, they went inside. It was midnight on a Saturday night. Um, his parents were already in bed, the door was shut, and so he just knocked through the door and said, Hey, dad, my friend wants me to go to church with him. You can say no. I'm sure you're gonna say no, but but I at least wanted to ask. And the dad said, What is the name of the church? And so he told him the name of the church, and lo and behold, people from that church, about two weeks ahead of this question about going to church, they had seen that he was short-staffed in the restaurant while they were there having a meal, and they got up and they just started bussing tables. And then they came back and uh just were helping out without pay and just giving this guy everything that he needed. So when he asked them, Who are you? Why are you doing this? They said, Well, we're from this church, and so when he heard the name of the church that his son had been invited to go to, he was willing to say yes. That's only a God thing that could make those kinds of things happen. But that's exactly what I think you're describing in and what we can be doing in this book. It's not necessarily that I have to turn into a Billy Graham, I just simply can be a loving person in whatever way that God presents to me in a moment to express that love.

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Yeah. And I and I would say just one caveat on that is like intent matters. So none of us are talking about just a uh a basic philanthropy here. Uh let's just be nice, polite people, because that's what you're supposed to be. It's it's not, it the intent is uh it's not a polite love, it's a fierce chase your your soul down for the sake of your salvation kind of love. Like I love you so much that I want what's best for you, even if you don't know what that is yet. Someone, some people love me like that. Um many people loved me like that. And I do think that I think the intent matters. Um, I think that the Holy Spirit moves in some ways through intentional engagement in relationship for the sake of Christ versus I'm just generally a nice person who doesn't kick dogs on the side of the road. You know, it to me it opens up this avenue of the spirit's work when I live for Christ.

Kerry Wood, host 35:31

Agreed.

Field testing?

Kerry Wood, host 35:32

Agreed. So have you had a chance to do any kind of a field testing, so to speak, where you had some folks uh go through the exercises here and be able to offer testimonies of the results? Was that part of your developing the book process?

SPEAKER_02 35:48

Well, not not exactly that way in the way that you mean. Uh, but I will say all of these exercises have been field tested along the way in 20 plus years of uh pastoral ministry, um and and and in the ministries of others. Um and again, you know, it's kind of like uh I don't know if you know this uh quote, um, DL Moody was once preaching and doing evangelism, and a woman came to him and was like, Sir, I do not like the way that you do evangelism. And he asks her and it's like, Well, well, madam, can I ask uh how you do it? And she's like, I don't. And he said, Well, I rather, uh, you know, I don't like my way either, but I rather like it more than the way that you don't do it. Right. Uh, and so, you know, again, I just want to stress, I mean, these the the exercise and the challenge we ask people to do are more about doing something. Um I I think the I think the thing that I look at global Methodism is this we in in many ways the Methodist movement has been asleep. Uh like I think of us sleeping giant on the couch. Um our season that we've come through has caused us to to really wake up. Our people, people in the pews, like waking up, like, oh, wait a minute, what are we doing? Where are we? Okay, what what do we do? And if you've stayed still too long, your muscles atrophy in your body. But it's just a matter of getting up and exercising, and those muscles will be strengthened. And so, you know, are jumping jacks the only exercise? No, but if you get up and do some, your muscles will start to get stronger. Are sit-ups the only push-ups? Run, lift some weights, whatever. Just get moving and your muscles will get stronger. And guess what? Moving gets easier the more you move. And so I think I think with evangelism, with sharing our faith, that's a muscle that we really need to wake back up from if I can say, kind of our polite, nice, don't risk offending anyone, don't talk about politics or religion anywhere, kind of Methodism. We were at the outset, I mean, we were the kind of the rowdy Christians, you know? I mean, like our our altar calls were whosoever will become. So that brought in people who were rough, not polished, not cleaned up, not put together, but just rough. And I think I think we have to kind of come back around to that um of saying like whosoever will come, Christ is calling, and we want to share him, we want to share him with you. Absolutely.

Prayers for what?

Kerry Wood, host 38:55

So, what are your prayers for the people who read this book and engage it with faithfulness and earnestness? What what do you pray will be their outcome?

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Well, I I know for me, I mean, uh, I'm just praying that people will just start to try. Just like just Ryan said, like, you don't have to like have it all figured out. Um, but if you're a Christian who belongs to Jesus, you're called to do evangelism. That's the bottom line. Like, maybe not everyone is called to the office of an evangelist, but everyone is still called to do evangelism. That's there's no version of discipleship to Jesus in the New Testament that does not include sharing the good news with other people. I mean, if you look at Jesus first uh calling the disciples like in Mark's gospel, right after he announces, you know, like his public ministry, the kingdom of God is at hand, his first words to disciples are come and follow me, and I'll make you fishers of people. So the call to evangelism is built in from word one. Right. He knows he doesn't say, I'm gonna call, you know, come and follow me after you have a seminary degree and feel super comfortable and know all this stuff. No, I mean he starts sending them out really early in the process. This is just part of what it means to be a disciple of Jesus. And um, and so I hope that this book is just it will just mobilize people just to try, just to start something. Because I think exactly what Ryan said, when you start to just just give it a go, you start to it it builds faith and it builds those spiritual muscles, and then it starts to become easier. I mean, I've seen this in my own life. Like just the more that you just talk about Jesus with people, the more you offer to pray for people, um, it just it does, it grows on you. And you also, here's the like one of the beauties of evangelism. So often we talk about evangelism like it's some like really hard task, like I guess I have to bear this burden. No, evangelism is a gift. Like the God of the universe is inviting us, as crazy as it is, into his cosmic plan to redeem all of mankind. Like that's wild. And when you do evangelism, you actually you become more fully alive yourself. So, like, you know, we're we're meant we're never meant to just sort of like be stopped up where we just receive and then it doesn't go anywhere. You know, healthy, you know, a healthy river like keeps flowing, and so is as we're receiving uh from Christ, like it's meant to go somewhere. And so one of the things that I always encourage people with evangelism is like you're not doing this just for other people, you're doing it also because you're not gonna experience the fullness of the Christian life, you're not gonna experience the life that really God intends you to live if you're not sharing it with other people. Like the love that you receive from from Him is multiplied as you give it away. And so, um, yeah, so I hope people will just give it a go. Just even just the smallest. I've seen, I could tell you so many just crazy stories of just the smallest step of faith, just one little step of faith and the way that God will meet you there, and you're like, it can be so timid, like I don't know, but I'm just gonna I'm gonna open my mouth this one time and try. And then the way that God will meet you. So um any any movement forward of just a uh to give it a go, I think will will bear fruit in your life and in the life of others. And I I hope that this book becomes a catalyst for that for people.

Kerry Wood, host 42:44

Yeah.

Giving and receiving

Kerry Wood, host 42:45

Well, I I think you you hit on something that's really, really important, and maybe one of the reasons that so much of the time Western Christianity feels like it's an anemic Christianity, and that is that we've forgotten how important it is to give away what we've gotten. Yeah, it's all been about absorbing, absorbing and seeker sensitive church, I think just exacerbated that because it was all about come and receive, come and receive. And as you pointed out, Jesus says come and receive, but then go. And without both aspects of that, I mean it's kind of like breathing. I can't breathe in without breathing out because eventually my lungs get too full for taking another breath, and then the oxygen runs out and I pass out. So we need the give and the take of that. And and your this book really does help us get into the aspiration and inspiration of the respiration of the church.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Yeah, something I I want to follow up on something you just said, Carrie, because it's really important. This is a massive mindset shift for North American Christians because really, for the last 50 years, we've been kind of dominated by like this church growth mentality. Which is really built on consumer business practice. And that kind of church model, it sort of disembodies evangelism and makes it sort of like evangelism as something that the sort of quote unquote the church does. And it's usually associated with certain kind of either a certain committee is responsible for it, certain programs, or most of the time it's like, what can we do? How can we tweak what we offer on our weekend worship so that more people come? When we talk about evangelism, we're really just figuring out ways to sort of trick people to get into our building. Well, that's not real. That's not actually evangelism. And that's not the way Jesus did evangelism. That's not how Methodists did evangelism in the early days. Like, I don't want to go too deep into it because I get a little bit nerdy about uh field preaching. So I did that's what I studied when I did my doctorate. But our heritage is a DNA that says we're gonna take the gospel to wherever people are at, not sit around and wait for them to come to us. And so we have to, when we talk about evangelism, even in the church, because we've been shaped by this church growth era, we don't think about it the right way. We think like, well, what's the church gonna do to reach more young people? Well, when we when we say those kind of things, the only thing we should be doing is we should be looking in the mirror as we say them. The church is us, like everyday flesh and blood human beings, whether you're the pastor or you're the person sitting in the pew, it doesn't matter. All of us, you know, we're if if evangelism is gonna be done by by somebody, it's gonna be it's gotta be us, it's gotta be real people. And there's no silver bullet or trick to it. Like we um we we've got to stop thinking about like, well, what's the church gonna do? We've got to start thinking about, well, what am I gonna do?

Kerry Wood, host 45:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:58

Who who am I gonna share my faith with? And if more people in our churches, even just a small segment of our church, I've seen this many times, even just a small chunk of the church starts to really catch the vision for this, people will be reached with the gospel and more people will end up coming to your church. You don't have to start clamoring for bodies if people in your church are committed to the to the basic Christian work of evangelism. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Yeah, I I think a simple way of saying it is evangelism is not a program. Yeah. It it is a relationship, it is having a relationship with Christ and sharing that relationship with people that he cares about, which is everyone around you. Um I I think I think that is where you know what we're putting our finger on is evangelism outreach, it became a program of the church. Here's how we do it. And what we meant was here's how a committee or the pastor or whatever, the paid person does it, and you know, we'll we'll hide the Easter eggs. And you know, I that all of that stuff is good. I mean, I don't get me wrong, like reach wanting to reach out to your community, wanting to share your church with with people in your town, that's a good thing. But what we're talking about is discipleship. We're talking about in in Bishop Gregory really brings this home, I think, in her chapter. It is about me sharing my life with you in your life in a way that brings us both closer to Christ. And and that is what's growing our churches. Our churches that are growing are growing because people are doing, they are discipling other people. And that starts with just sharing Christ with other people. Um and at the end of the day, there is there's no way around this. Like

Am I a disciple?

SPEAKER_02 48:02

we can argue about what is a disciple, what isn't a disciple, but there's no way around this. Disciples for sure disciple other people, and so if you're like, Am I a disciple or am I not? You need to ask, who am I sharing the faith of Jesus Christ with? And if the answer is no one, then you may need to reassess like, am I actually a disciple of Jesus myself? Because I need to be sharing what's been been shared with me, uh, with someone else. And and as Matt already said, it does, it strengthens you. It gosh, it's like prayer. Does God, you know, who gets the most out of prayer, of my prayer? Uh, God hearing everything I have to share with him, uh, as if it's news, or me communing uh and trusting and remembering who God is and who I am because of him. Sharing Christ, same way. Uh, it it is. It's it's good for the believer as much as it is for the non-believer to come into contact with you. Um, so yeah, I really do. I'm my prayer too, Matt, is people honestly, I don't even care if they use this book or another or none, just the scriptures that hear the great commission and something fires inside. I don't as long as as long as they're they're out there, every Methodist and evangelist. Oh Lord, what what could the possibly be? Let me let me just say this why I'm excited and why I think this this moment matters. Okay, number one, we know that we this moment in human human history is the greatest ingathering of new Christians in global history. So more new Christians are being born right now than any other point in human history. Um in 2022, in North America, in America in particular, was the first time in like 50, 100 years or something that we did not have a decline in Christianity. The number actually was arrested. It it the trend going down, down, down. It it stopped going down, it leveled out in like just the slightest, like, ooh, did that go up? We don't know, but we need to wait. 23 up again, 24, up again. We expect 25 up again. Now I can't, I don't think it's causal, but I do think it's related. The global Methodist Church forms and launches in 2022, in the same moment that uh Christianity in America stops its decline. I'm not saying it stopped declining because the Global Methodist Church launched, but what I am saying is I believe God is doing something different and great in the world through the power of the Spirit. We have been praying for years for another great awakening in this country. And God was like, no, how about a great global awakening? Not an awakening of a nation, but awakening of faith for the globe. And oh, by the way, I am going to use the faithfulness of the global Methodists who took a hard stand and said, like Luther, here we stand, we can do no other, we cannot be moved. And I am going to allow them to break this bread and to feed not 5,000, but millions. There are

God's global awakening

SPEAKER_02 51:34

80 million Wesleans in the world today, because John Wesley was willing to say, you know, I think the Holy Spirit wants to do more in our lives than we've currently experienced, and I'll stand on my father's headstone if I have to to preach the message. So if 80 million are the result over these couple hundred years from that man's stand, imagine now with our 7,600 churches, with every member a Methodist, uh, every member that's a Methodist and evangelist, what could happen even in the next decade in human history? I'm just telling you, you want to be a part of it. I think everyone should want to be a part of it. Uh, and I see God doing this. Book has already been translated into Bulgarian, and it will be used at an international uh evangelism retreat with all Bulgarian global Methodist pastors, with the Mid-Texas Conference, because we're international partners with them, but also the conference superintendent of Mexico and two representatives from uh Costa Rica Methodist Church are all coming to study and grow together on how we can do this on a global scale. Learn from each other, uh, grow together and do it together. You tell me God's not doing something great. Not that I get excited about it at all, but you know, we worked for 20 years thinking, how can God renew what we're doing? And God was like, Your prayer's too small. Watch what I can do, and now you get to witness and be a part of. Yeah, Carrie Matt, it's just so exciting. And I hope everyone both feels that sense of excitement and chooses to participate in it with the Lord.

Kerry Wood, host 53:25

Amen. So,

Where can I get it?

Kerry Wood, host 53:27

where can we get this book? Is it just through Francis Asbury Society or where do we find it?

SPEAKER_02 53:33

Yeah, you can get it direct from Francis Asbury Society on their website, but it's also available on Amazon. Uh, it you it's on Prime, so it delivers right to your house within a day or two. Um, and it has a Kindle electronic, you know, digital version as well. Although I'm, you know, getting older and I don't like digital. I especially, you know, with this one, we designed it to be kind of a workbook so you can write inside of it. But, you know, if you can write on a Kindle now, I think. I I don't know. My kid does that. I can't do it. But uh but yeah, it's pretty widely, widely available. And we do really recommend doing it in community. So if somebody's listening and they're like, hey, I want to do that, go to your science school class, go to your small group and say, hey guys, or just your spouse or two friends. What get a couple of people, do it together so you have somebody to talk about uh your experience with. Uh, hey, this was the challenges this week. This is what worked, this is what didn't. How about you? So you learn together. Again, Jesus sent them out two by two. So get at least one friend or small group and undertake it together.

Kerry Wood, host 54:40

Absolutely. That sounds wonderful. And what is the best way for people if they want to contact you, Ryan? How should they do that?

SPEAKER_02 54:48

Uh, they can email me, uh Ryan Barnett at midtexas uh gmc.org. Uh they can call me. Carrie has my phone number, y'all. So uh I don't know if I want to just say it on the internet, but you probably don't want to say it on the internet. Yeah, okay. But I I am I'm I'm wide open, I'm easy to find, um and would would enjoy the opportunity to visit just with anybody. Uh oh, and Carrie, I do want to say so I don't forget, you know, you said you wanted to be a baler bear. Uh I don't know. Do you do you have your doctorate yet? Let me just I do not. I'm gonna put this, I'm gonna put this out there for you. Uh your your dream can come true and affordability is off the table. Every every Methodist that uh right now at Truitt that's going through the Wesley House is getting uh an average of 88% scholarship for masters and doc demens, and most of them are getting 100%. And so uh we've got some very generous people who believe in the GMC and what's happening and want to make uh those things possible. So come on and uh we'd love to have you uh green and gold, and uh we've got a scholarship with your name on it, sir.

Kerry Wood, host 56:05

Well, I appreciate that. And uh, I'm glad you were able to throw in that plug for the the true at school. And uh Matt, how should people get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Yeah, probably the easiest way is uh just to go to our ministries website, spiritandruth.life.lif e. And uh my email and contact is on there. And um, yeah, I'd love to connect with folks. If there's any way that we can uh help uh work for renewal and really train train people just to get intentional sharing their faith, yeah, we we love to do that.

Kerry Wood, host 56:37

So feel free to do offer opportunities for churches to to engage with you and your team to come in and do these uh these weekend training times. Um, I've experienced them a couple of times. They're they're wonderful. Uh are you fully booked for 2026? Or if somebody called you and said, Hey Matt, we desperately want to learn how to do evangelism, would you have room?

SPEAKER_00 57:00

Well, my team gets mad because I'm always like squeezing in one more thing. Uh but um so there's a possibility we we technically are full for 26, but right now we are just starting to schedule for 2027 and we have a lot of availability next year. Um, but yeah, I would love to just uh if if folks are interested in that, these kind of equipping renewal weekends that it that focus on a variety of things but also really culminate with this evangelism opportunity. Um, yeah, just reach out to us and we'll set up a Zoom and we'd love to talk to you more about that.

Kerry Wood, host 57:36

That sounds wonderful.

Final thoughts and prayer

Kerry Wood, host 57:37

Is there anything else either of you gentlemen feel like uh we've missed that you want to make sure to to convey to us today?

SPEAKER_02 57:47

I just want to say how grateful I am to um you know Francis Asbury Society for investing in this project and wanting to do it. And for each of the contributors, I mean it really is an incredible group of people who each one contributes from their own experience. Um and I know each of them personally. That was a really a neat thing to be able to say, like, I know these people and beyond their public persona and their writing, they are living these things out. Like they are living it out. And I think it comes through uh in the work itself is there is an authenticity to what they are sharing because uh because they it's true to them. And so I just I I would, I would, I would say thanks to to Matt, um, and and Bishop Gregory and Luther and Bill, um, and and Jason Vickers. I mean, you know, that guy, he's a theologian, he's a brilliant philosopher and Wesleyan uh scholar, but uh he's also my neighbor. And I'm telling you, he lives it out like in his day, in his home and in his neighborhood, and in in our community. And so he doesn't just write about it from like uh ivory tower, he's living it out, uh, which is which is really neat that to have this collection. So I do want to just say thanks to to all of them for their for their work and contribution. I I pray it really helps move the needle on our movement. Um, so Carrie, thanks again for having us.

Kerry Wood, host 59:24

What a joy it is. That's great. We enjoyed it. And and I want to say that every one of the chapters, they are very uh readable. You it doesn't have a lot of you know high-level language that you got to struggle to figure out, okay, what are they talking about? I mean, it's very accessible, very uh down to earth. And I just really appreciate the the work that you did, Ryan, to pull it all together and to bring this to us as a resource. And uh as we we head out, I'd I would like to just pray over you two and uh the the opportunities that we have to work together, if you would be willing to do that with me.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:05

Amen.

Kerry Wood, host 1:00:06

Oh gracious and almighty God, thank you for the ways in which you have given us work to do. I'm reminded that uh in the very beginning, when uh Adam and Eve were were given the Garden of Eden, they didn't just walk around and do nothing. They were given the task of actually working the garden. And so all along you have given humanity a sense of engagement and purpose. And Lord, one of those purposes for us in this fallen world is to give people the ability to experience what it is beyond the fall and in a place of redemption and restoration and the fullness of life that we have through Jesus Christ. So I thank you, God, that you have put us to this task. I thank you for Ryan Barnett and his helping to guide us in living into this task, for the other contributors who brought this together for Matt and his heart for your church and for people and the way that that is able to be expressed. Thank you for the Global Methodist Church, and I am just so grateful that I have been able to be alive, to be a part of this, of being able to express to the world what a Wesleyan holiness movement is about, to recover our sense of theological integrity, of biblical holy holiness and Lord, in all the ways in which we can be your agents into this world. Lord, let this be a global awakening. I pray that this book will become a treasured resource, not just because people need to read it, but because people need to live it and to begin to learn how their lives are an evangelistic tool, just simply in an everyday, practical way. So, God, thank you for all of your love, for all of the ways in which you are continuing to give your grace upon grace. And it's in Jesus' name that we pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you, Carrie. Thank you. It's been great. Enjoyed it very, very much. Thank you very much. If you enjoyed this podcast, please take the time to share it with others. We are on Facebook. You can share it through that, or you can put anything out on X, Twitter, whatever you want to call that these days. We have holiness.org at our website. You can leave us an email at holdiness at ncclobalmethodist.org. There are many ways to reach out and engage with me. If you have ideas about a future podcast, please share that so that we can keep going with the good news of what God is doing here in North Carolina. And I look forward to seeing you next time.