Welcome And Purpose Of Holiness

Kerry Wood, host 0:06

This is the Pursue Holiness podcast, an official podcast of the North Carolina Conference of the Global Methodist Church. We are engaged in scriptural holiness— applying it to everyday life so that we can have the new life in Jesus springing forth so richly and powerfully within us. So that all we are and all that we do accurately reflect the true character of God. Thanks for being with us today.

Kerry Wood, host 1:03

We appreciate our listeners so very much and would love for you to spread the word so that we can increase the number of people that are aware of this great resource and all the wonderful stories of God at work in our lives. Let's hear it for year number two with the first time that we have a repeat guest. So stay tuned and you will hear who he is.

Why David Banks Returns

Kerry Wood, host 1:32

Hello, friends. This is another edition of the Pursue Holiness Podcast for the North Carolina Global Methodist Conference. And I'm very excited for the person that we have today because I think he is a true treasure to the annual conference. He's been a previous guest, but this time the conversation is going to be a little bit different because I'm talking with David Banks, who has been our conference superintendent since the day we became a conference of the Global Methodist Church. And he is pending a move into senior status. And I thought, well, this will be a great opportunity for us to hear from him, to get some of his last words, some of the things that he has learned while he's been in this ministry role, and most importantly, for us to be able to thank him for all that he's done while he's been in this role. So, David, welcome to the podcast yet again. Well, the last time you were on, you gave us a little bit of your backstory in terms of how you came to faith, what your your early life was like. And I guess I'm probably fair to say that while you were born in California, you rectified that mistake and got to North Carolina as soon as you could. Is that is that a fair way of describing it?

David Banks 2:44

Oh, absolutely. I have said many, many times California is a wonderful state to be from. It don't want to go back there. I would go if God said it.

Kerry Wood, host 2:56

Yes.

David Banks 2:56

But I love North Carolina. It is home. I've been here since I was in 10th grade. Uh well, excepting a few years in South Carolina and Chicago, but this is home.

Kerry Wood, host 3:08

Very good. And we are glad that you made it your home. And you became the conference superintendent for us as we became first a provisional annual conference and then an official annual conference.

Disaffiliation And A New Beginning

Kerry Wood, host 3:20

And I'm just curious, can you share with us some of the factors or the considerations and especially the spirit moves that guided you into taking on that role?

David Banks 3:30

Yeah. I was so naive. I was serving a congregation, trying to do what I could as a pastor to help the congregation discern God's will, whether to remain in the denomination or to disaffiliate, and wanted to do that in a way that was right and fair and just and true. Tried not to , though I had critique of our denomination, I didn't want unjustly to impugn. I didn't want to make it about persons and personalities. So I was deeply entrenched in the the disaffiliation conversations. I went to a meeting where Angela Pleasants had come into eastern North Carolina to have a conversation. And in the question and answer part of that meeting, it was at the Vanceboro Methodist Church, I recognized that increasingly several of the people in the meeting were turning and asking me questions. And at that point, I realized it was not enough simply to help my congregation understand the issues and discern well what the question is before them. So I began inviting the area pastors to come, and then some laity would come, and the church I served was well very welcoming of them. So we began meeting on a regular basis. But in all of this, the focus was on the questions of disaffiliating. So in my naivete, we we talked very little about the organization of the Global Methodist Church. And I was naive to think when we finally disaffiliated, when we came to December 31st of 2022, our last day in one denomination and January 1st, our first in a new, I just assumed the new would be in place, in order, but I was naive. Now that being said, I was not thinking about any role in helping us organize to become an effective annual conference. That that was not on my mind. I was more interested in in the local church I was serving, the the additional friends, pastors that I was engaged with. And I was interested in my grandson. So my wife and I that's always important.

Kerry Wood, host 6:18

Oh, absolutely.

David Banks 6:19

So my wife and I drove west to Graham, North Carolina for Grandparents' Day. And the church I served at that time hosted Grandparents' Day for the elementary school around the corner from the church, and that meant in two shifts the students and the grandparents would come into our large fellowship hall. And Grandparents' Day meant eat a cookie, drink some milk, and the grandparent read a book to the grandchild at the table, and after about 45 minutes, it was over and everyone left. So we go to Graham and I discover oh! Grandparents' day is all day.

A Call Heard In The Night

David Banks 7:05

I didn't realize that. But either way, overnight we were - the night before - my wife and I were in the guest room, fast asleep, and about three or four in the morning, I awakened. I was wide awake, and I heard a voice tell me that I (and I don't know if my wife was awake if she would have heard it or not,) but it was a sound, it felt audible to me), that I should be open to leadership in the Global Methodist Church. That was just out of the blue, not in my thinking. And my first response was , where did this sin of self-promotion come from? Or is it just a temptation for self-promotion? I don't have much patience for self-aggrandizement. I don't want to promote myself in any way, right? So I found myself praying myself back to sleep, asking God to forgive me for any hint of self-centeredness that would begin, to think in self-promotion. I woke up in the morning, didn't think much about that experience. Maybe about seven or a little thereafter, I hopped in the shower. While I was showering, the same voice spoke exactly the same words again. And again, it made me try to evaluate my heart - you know what's going on. But, so that was a within about three or four hours, two events, same words. I heard it with my ears. I went off to grandparents' day, learned somewhere near noon that we could abscond with our grandchild early. So we called my and said, " We're taking our grandson to New Bern. If you want him, you and your husband need to come get him." So we did. We we took off and headed to New Bern with our grandson. And on the way the phone rang. And you know how the Bluetooth works, everybody in the truck's gonna hear it. So I recognized the the caller immediately and told him I had others listening in, to which he said that was probably good because Jerri, my wife, was listening, and asked if I would be open to taking the role of President Pro Tem pore, which is our first title for this role. And I couldn't tell him no. Now, let me just qualify that was not to become President Pro Tem, that was to be put on the list of those willing.

Kerry Wood, host 9:58

Okay.

David Banks 9:59

But I couldn't tell him no because of the two experiences early in the morning. And and as my wife and I talked further, I told her then, because I had not mentioned then about the experiences. And I also told Jerri that it may not mean God's calling us to this. It's - if we're trying to discern God's will, if they're trying to discern who's going to be in this role - it's helpful to have more than one on the list. So you actually have to pray and ask God to guide. If there's just one, we can become presumptuous. So either way, I went on the list. I read the transitional book of doctrines and disciplines, began to realize I'd been naive and had not been paying attention to the organization. And when all was said and done, I was asked to take this role. Of course, you know, Kari Howard as the associate conference superintendent - or then vice Pro Tem. And and that then started with a soft beginning in late 2022. I think we actually started our role on December 1st and then the formal beginning[was] on January 1st of 2023. But that's how I ended up getting there. I didn't seek it, didn't want it. I had to be obedient to what became clear to me was God, or God's angel, speaking to me that morning.

Kerry Wood, host 11:46

Yes, yes. I'm glad you didn't have quite as much resistance as Moses did at the burning bush.

David Banks 11:53

Well, I read Moses, I didn't want to go through all of that. I don't know that I had as many excuses as Moses had. He has he has four clear excuses, and I couldn't excuse myself as a stutterer after I've been at that point preaching 40 years.

Kerry Wood, host 12:14

Right! Indeed, indeed.

Favorite Moments Serving The Conference

Kerry Wood, host 12:16

So, what are some of the favorite moments that you've experienced while you have held this role?

David Banks 12:21

Boy, uh I don't even know how to answer that question, Kerry. I thank you for it, because it's good to stop and take stock. But clearly a favorite component, can't call this a moment, is the encounters and the growing friendships with such an array of wonderful people. Of course, you understand what that means in terms of the cabinet, but the people we have worked with on the cabinet, what a gift to be numbered among them. Or as you know, very early were getting the lay ministry team going - to be among the lay team leaders. What what a gift! So clearly, one of my favorite pieces of this is the shared life with God's incredible, beautiful people. That's one. But if I move to events, you know early 2023 we did a conference. Everyone was invited, but it was on the east end at the Covenant Church in Winterville or Greenville area, sort of a "first fruits" celebration. We were a couple months into this, and many churches on the east were now in their new environment, some having decided to be global Methodist, others deciding to be global Methodist. We had this promise of a larger harvest as we looked to the Western side of the state. Already there were secretly a number of pastors helping us, some Western pastors that were functioning with the cabinet already. We already knew of some churches that were likely to come in. So, but we had to be very careful in those days. So, so we held this service, and I think it was in March, it might have been in February of 2023, and to gather with people mostly from the East, but quite a number from the West, as a first fruit celebration. You know, Pentecost has a number of pieces to it. One is first fruits. The first ripening strawberry, if you would, or the first ripening grape, is a promise of a great harvest to come. And we anticipated that the small number of churches that were out, which wasn't that small, it was maybe 120 at that point or something, was but a promise of a larger number of churches who would be gathered into the Global Methodist Church. So that was a rich moment in that worship service. Of course, our convening conference was as well, where we we actually formalized as a body the work of our TCAT; the marvelous leadership that team gave into helping organize the conference as to as our additional annual conference sessions. But you will appreciate this, and anybody who was present or has watched the online the general conference 2024 - I wept. Yes, I still weep. I remember sitting there and thinking, I have always believed that the Methodist promise in Christ could be like this. We touching what is holy, and participating in what is holy, and and being sent for what is holy. And it was incredible. You know, the the floor of heaven opened up, the ceiling of earth opened up, and it was hard to know whether we were on earth or in heaven as we entered into that general conference. It was amazing. Of course, there are there there are so many other things. I've been in a hundred different churches, give or take. I'm not able - I just really don't know the exact number. But the churches are incredible, they're very different from one another. The ministries are different, but we have no insignificant churches. Now, some are small and there's a dozen people, and some are large, and there's a couple thousand on a Sunday. But no church is insignificant; and being part of seeing that has been a gift from God. I just am humbled by the privilege of being in so many churches.

Kerry Wood, host 17:25

Yes. I will resonate with you that my some of my favorite moments, as you have been the conference leader for us, that convening conference was indeed. That is such a run-down old theater there in Fayetteville, and yet it felt so glorious as we came together. And I leaned over to my wife and I said, "I didn't know annual conference could feel this holy." It was just a truly powerful dynamic. And I know you won't claim credit for for how that came to be, but as the the leader for us, you were certainly instrumental in all the parts and the pieces, guided by the Holy Spirit, bringing that together. And that was such a beautiful experience.

David Banks 18:11

Well, thank you. I don't have a sophisticated notion of leadership. I think in leadership, you try to position others to succeed and give what's necessary, and then you go around and tell people, "thank you." So many people have contributed, that a lot of times I'm just the guy witnessing how God has worked through wonderful people; and I go around and I say, "thank you." If there was anything I contributed to the conferences when I got this role and knew conference would be part of our life together, as it is for Methodists, I suddenly had a new responsibility I never had for all those decades. I did what I do. I thought I ought to study around

Revival Before Policy At Conference

David Banks 19:10

our thinking of conference. So I began back with the the early minutes from the days of John Wesley, that first set of general minutes. I found a book written by an old friend of mine, Russ Ritchie, and I read, and it became clear that historically there have been three valuable purposes to conference. The first is the revival of the souls. Now, originally it was the pastors who were coming, they've been scattered, they've been on the front lines, they're coming back. They needed the renewal of their souls. And secondly, after renewal was connection - the developing of substantial relationships that are effective in the kingdom. And then thirdly, given the encounter with God in the revival and the renewal, and the encounter with God in connection, then the organizing of our work was to be affected. So revival, connection, then polity or governance or policy, in that order. What I'd experienced mostly previously was just dealt with pensions and insurance and and reports. It was the policy side, but had no missional passion. Or little, can't say no. So what I think I did contribute was talking revival first, connection second, then organization third.

Kerry Wood, host 20:41

Yes. And that's that has been a pattern that was established and it's continued. And if there, if there's anybody who's listening to this, and you think, "oh, I don't want to go to the annual conference, it's all boring, it's all meetings." Friends, I want you to reconsider, because what we experience in our annual conference sessions is exactly what David just described. It is about the renewal of our souls and the connection, empowerment of the Holy Spirit among us, the camaraderie and the joy of being together as Global Methodists from the mountains to the sea, as they like to say. And then we finally take care of those things that gotta be done, but we don't do them with any sense of rancor, any sense of hostility. It really is a beautiful coming together to say how can we most effectively organize ourselves for God's glory, others' good, and we get to celebrate that process.

David Banks 21:33

Yeah, we we really do meet the living, resurrected Jesus Christ by the ministry of the Holy Spirit when we gather. God, the Father, is glorified. It's rather amazing. But again, I didn't create that, those three things. I just found them in the documents of Methodism as I looked over those years. I just told us what we originally thought about conference.

Kerry Wood, host 21:58

Well, you're just following Wesley's Steps. I mean, John Wesley said he was not inventing a new Christianity, he was reclaiming the real Christianity, right? The primitive Christianity.

David Banks 22:09

That is indeed the intention. Yeah. If you're creating something new, you bet you're right on the borders of heresy. We don't want to go there.

Kerry Wood, host 22:16

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Well, describe what ways were your plans and the expectations for our conference over these last four years? How have they been fulfilled? What do you see as the the way this conference has done well?

David Banks 22:31

I think we've done well in many regards. Not the least is the unification west and east. And for pastors like I, who did not go to Duke, never had the opportunity of developing friendships across East and West by being among the Duke students or alumni. I knew a few in the West because I had served in jurisdictional conference or general conference, or I had been on a general agency, but mostly didn't know. So coming together, who would lead us? And who are the people of strength in the East? Who are the people of strength in the West? Who are the people who have vision in Christ, East or West? We we didn't know that. But we were sure of this, that there were people of gifts across the state, the state. Now, you know, we've seen pastors cross that invisible border from the past. So people from the east who are serving west and people from the west who are serving east. When we gather at annual conference, we're not saying, "oh, you're one of them." No, we are the North Carolina Annual Conference of the Global Methodist Church. We are in it together. Now there are other things that are just in process. One of my strong convictions, I've said this in many settings, is we should not expect the annual conference organization to do the things that the Bible expects the local church to do.

Kerry Wood, host 24:21

Right.

David Banks 24:22

And we have have sought very diligently to have an annual conference that serves the ministry of Christ in and through the local church and and doesn't present as somehow being a higher, better, greater place to serve than the local church. So I think that's an important piece for me. That what follows on that is something we achieved at the general conference. And I was on that constitution committee, and it is one of the agenda items I had going into that committee. I wanted a change in our formal statements. When our previous denomination had a formal doctrinal statement or disciplinary statement that the annual conference is the basic organization of the United Methodist Church. I wanted to turn that on its head to the local church. So now our constitution speaks of the charge conference as the basic organization in our structure, thus, the local church being central and dynamic in the mission; and that the other levels of of organization, annual conference and general conference, serve the ministry of the local church.

Keeping The Local Church Central

David Banks 25:45

Now, now we have that in writing. It's still up to us to put it in practice.

Kerry Wood, host 25:50

Yes, there is a difference.

David Banks 25:52

Those are some of the things that I think have been fulfilled. There, there are things we certainly need to continue to develop. But uh, but that's that that's a good set that were early on was on my heart.

Kerry Wood, host 26:08

Yeah. So you kind of led me into a next question, which is what are some of the things that you still hope will come about even as you step away from this specific role? You know, what are some of the things that "only God can?" And then what are the things that "we can with God?"

David Banks 26:27

Wonderful questions.

Relearning Evangelism With Intention

David Banks 26:33

We must become evangelists. Yes. I may be over- speaking because I cannot see clearly. I live in a small town on the coast of North Carolina, and that means I don't see what's happening where you are, or I don't see what's happening in Roanoke Rapids, or in Pembroke, or in Charlotte, or in Minneapolis, North Carolina. I don't see that. My sense is too few of our pastors and too few of our clergy are confident in sharing a gospel invitation to strangers and inviting them to life in Christ. We're a little more confident in inviting them to come to church, hoping maybe the pastor can get them in or something, or maybe slowly they'll walk in. We need to - to quote Romans chapter one - "belief in the gospel as the power of God unto salvation to all who believe." And I long to see every Global Methodist -- well, actually, I long to see every church, not just Global Methodist churches -- having such a conviction that everyone they meet needs the gospel of Jesus Christ and that this may be their only opportunity. So they go into these encounters with a prayer, "Lord, how can I add to what you're already doing in bringing this person to Jesus Christ?" And I think of evangelism as constructing a chain. Whenever I encounter somebody, I want to add another link to the chain. And when the chain is complete, there will be a conversion to Christ. But then the chain grows in sanctification. But how can I add another link to the chain? But I also have learned, and you know, I've been now in full-time ministry for 48 years. I have learned if you do not intend to speak to somebody about Jesus today, you will not. It is about intention. Wherever I go, if I'm at a store, if I'm walking the neighborhood, I must intend to speak of Jesus with people. And there are many avenues to get there. It's not like we have to have one cookie-cutter way of opening the conversation, but if that's all you have, then use the cookie-cutter way. As a young pastor, I was at a pastor's meeting, so you know, I was in youth ministry for six years, it was an early pastor's meeting as a pastor, so maybe I was 30 or 31. But one pastor stood up and complained about another pastor in the same room and what that church was doing in their evangelism. And the other pastor stood up and said, "Well, I like my way of doing evangelism poorly better than your way of not doing it at all." It was quite an exchange, and I thought, you know, we don't want to do evangelism poorly. But to do it poorly is to seek to obey the command of Christ, and it's better than not doing it at all. We have a lot of work to do to become evangelists. Yes. I won't name the church, but it was it was in a very remote part of North Carolina. And driving to the church, it feels like maybe that there's like a whole two or three people within a mile or two of the church. I was very remote. And I went into the church expecting, you know, 15, 20 people, and it was like a hundred. And I couldn't believe it. But they actually are finding the people hidden in that two, three, four square miles around their church, or that mile, two mile radius around their church. And they're finding them and inviting them, and they're coming. And I was awed, just absolutely awed. I guess I'm in a place where I have come to see no matter how remote your church is, there is somebody close by that needs the gospel. And if you're a large church with lots of people, there's still somebody close by that needs the gospel.

Kerry Wood, host 31:47

Right.

David Banks 31:48

So so I would like to see more evangelism, more baptisms. That that that is one of the things I look

Lay Ministry As The Main Work

David Banks 32:00

for as an outcome. I also have preached a conference on the importance of lay ministry. 99% of all ministry done in the name of Christ is lay ministry. Clergy are such a small percentage of the whole. We need laity not simply to formally serve on a committee, but to look at their work, their being neighbors, their being grandparents or parents, as opportunity for ministry in the name of Jesus Christ. The laity, you know, in Acts chapter 8 and 9, the laity are scattered like seed with all of the promise of seed- bearing fruit. And even as we speak, they're scattered in doctors' offices and hospitals and , well, not too many in public schools, (they're they're out, at least in this part of North Carolina,) but they're scattered in schools and they're scattered in stores, they're scattered in neighborhoods, and wherever there is a Christian, there is the promise of a seed germinating and bearing fruit. I would like to see more conviction that lay ministry is the most extensive and promising ministry out there. I haven't dwelt much on this in my time, so maybe

Bringing Children Back To Worship

David Banks 33:25

I can't answer that this as a question at the moment. But we've got to do some work on children being in worship. We have this pressure that's been built to get kids out of worship in the children's church, and we argue from the rational development of a child what they can and cannot get. But it's no coincidence that the largest exodus of 18 and 30-year-olds in history from the church, at least American history, has happened at the same time we began moving children out of worship services.

Kerry Wood, host 34:01

Yes.

David Banks 34:02

There are two significant studies that that have shown that link. If we're taking our kids in the children's church, we're raising the risk they they drop out of the church when they become 18 to 30. My friend from Africa, named Salif just told me that he didn't understand Americans. If he wanted his child to farm, he took his son to be beside him in the garden. If he wanted him to fish, his son was beside him at the river. And when he wanted his son to learn to worship, his son was in worship right beside him. And his job as a father was to do the work. Worship was not about what he got. He was a partner with the pastor and the Holy Spirit, helping his son get worship. We have got to get our children back into the body of Christ in worship. We age- segregate at Sunday school, we age- segregate at Bible school, we age- segregate a thousand places. But worship and a much of formation has to be generational and not age segregated.

Kerry Wood, host 35:13

Right. I 100% agree with that.

David Banks 35:15

So that's one of the things I yet hope for.

Kerry Wood, host 35:20

And that falls into that "we can with God" category. This is going to be a change of attitude and behavior on our part that God is then going to harness into the lives of these young kids. And if anybody thinks, well, four, five, six-year-old, they can't sit through the worship service and they're not going to learn anything. I still remember the Sunday that I had a five-year-old who came up to me after worship and he had drawn a picture inspired by what he heard in the message. And I'm going to tell you that that five-year-old understood what was being said much better than most of the so-called adults who said, "fine sermon, Pastor, thank you so much," and didn't remember a thing.

David Banks 36:05

For many of us, the battle's hard. And the children are happy, they like what goes on. So it's no longer a fight to get them to church. But if we can't win the battle when they're three, when we're bigger and stronger, what makes us think we're going to win the battle when they're 10 or 11 or 13 and they're more skilled in resisting us or usurping our authority? The time to win the battle is young. And the other piece of this is I've had people say they get nothing out of it. How do they know that? Do they doubt that the Holy Spirit can work in a child simply because we can't articulate what the Holy Spirit did? The other side of it is knowledge. Well, they can't understand. Well, I walked to the ball field a couple of nights ago, and my 10-month-old grandson was there. He just can't understand my relationship with him. He can't call me Pop, (that's what my grandkids call me). He can't tell anybody that I'm his mother's father. He doesn't even know my name. He can't call me David, he can't call me Pastor. He can't tell you I was from California. He doesn't have information and he can't even hold it yet. But he knows me. And they were talking at the ball game because his father's family was there, and my daughter's family was there, there's a whole bunch of us there. My grandson who's playing ball had probably the biggest cheering crowd of everybody, but they were all laughing at how the little one, the 10-month-old, really knows me and immediately wants me, wants to be in my arms. Yeah, a child can know God, even if a child cannot explain God. A child can know Jesus as Savior and Lord before a child can call the wooden thing a cross. We have to understand that rational knowledge is not a substitute for relational knowledge, but the relational knowledge can grow into assimilating the rational knowledge. We want our children to know God in Christ from earliest infancy, and we we want that generational and powerful influence shaping their sense that they're in this body of which Jesus is the head.

Kerry Wood, host 38:39

Yes.

David Banks 38:40

But but I'll keep on that. I will chase that dog hunts. I think we've got to do some children's work. And the the most recent Uganda video showing some worship with all the children? Why do the Ugandans get to have all the children? May God give them more and may God make us like them.

Kerry Wood, host 39:02

Exactly. And for every parent who thinks, well, I've got to get my kid into t-ball or soccer or whatever, so that they learn that skill, you know, and they grow up knowing how to do that thing. How much more important is it that we instill in our children that sense of worship? Because I can guarantee you that there is less than 1% of a t-baller today who will be a major league all-star 20 years from now. But every child who is in a worship experience now, by the grace of God, can be a fully formed and forming disciple in Jesus 20 years from now. We don't have to have any fallout. God's ability to grow us is unlimited.

David Banks 39:43

Oh, yeah. I just, amen. I don't want to underplay or understate our parents' fears. Parents get them in sports because they want to keep them off drugs or get them in sports because they think that the practice and the discipline is beneficial. They get them in sports because they're hopeful for a scholarship. And what I fear is they overestimate the promise of sports and they underestimate the promise of the gospel in in addressing these things they fear.

Kerry Wood, host 40:21

Yes. I appreciate your challenge to us, David, that that is something that is it's going to be a legacy not just for you, not just for me, but for all of us, because life keeps going on from generation to generation, world without end. Amen.

David Banks 40:39

Amen.

Kerry Wood, host 40:40

So,

Senior Status Without Retiring

Kerry Wood, host 40:41

how do you anticipate serving the Lord in "senior status," which is our fancy way of saying retirement; but we claim we don't retire from ministry, we just change our location. So, what are you planning to do? What is it that you're excited about in this next stage in life?

David Banks 40:56

I'm called to ministry and will be trying to discern what all of that means. I love teaching Bible study. When I lost my eyesight earlier this year, coming on the back end of that, I was thankful to have offered to start a Bible study, and I have a small group of about 10 in Bible study. Maybe something like that can continue. There are churches -- (we intend to relocate to Carter County eventually, maybe sooner than we thought. Somebody wants to buy our house.) So if there are churches in Carter County that do not yet have appointments. If I can help the presiding elder to cover Sundays, I'd be thrilled to do that. I look forward to loving all my grandchildren. The interesting thing is that this summer, by the end of summer, all of my will live within a few blocks of each other in Carter County.

Kerry Wood, host 41:57

That's fun.

David Banks 41:58

So yeah, that really is. So what does it mean to to fully to be in their lives? I didn't learn things quickly. I was walking down the hall of the parsonage. I think we had three, maybe four children born at that time. It was dark down the hall, but I could hear my wife in one of the bedrooms praying with the kids, and the Holy Spirit poked me in the chest and said, "You pray with everybody, but you don't pray with your own children." And that was such a convicting moment. That event began to develop changes in my life's pattern, and it's probably - I don't know, I've never asked my kids - I bet my older kids and my younger kids have a different experience of their pastor dad. I began to be more present in the life of my children more spiritually. For all the stuff I did as a pastor for people, I felt so inadequate in my house. And I had to address that. So my younger two got more of me as a spiritual father than my older three got. And I think senior status might allow me to also give my grandchildren more of that.

Kerry Wood, host 43:28

That sounds very good, very exciting. I like that. Do you plan to do any writing? Is there a book in your future?

David Banks 43:37

Oh, just what we need is another unread book, right? I haven't read all the books yet that I intend to read, and I haven't. If there are any unfulfilled unfulfilled things as conference superintendent on the book front, I haven't convinced every pastor to read John Wesley every day. And I haven't convinced - I don't think - any pastor to read City of God by St. Augustine. You know, I read John Wesley almost every day. I keep a copy of City of God around. I've read it many times. I study it. So I might have to read a few new books. I like to read; I read a lot. I don't know that I will write. I don't know that I won't. I have contemplated going back to school. I am a student. I love to learn. I don't want to learn as an end in itself. Anything I can learn, any way I can grow, is to be a means to be effective in the ministry of Jesus Christ. So I don't know that I'll write a book. I might. And it it can join the thousands of other books no one reads. But I'll have one. You know, John Wesley's father wrote a book. I haven't read it. Have you read it?

Kerry Wood, host 45:08

No, I have not.

David Banks 45:09

He wrote a commentary on the book of Job. Um yeah, I might write a book, but maybe not.

Kerry Wood, host 45:17

Yeah.

David Banks 45:17

Uh I do like to write, but but I don't know that I will be out doing a lot of that. We'll see.

Kerry Wood, host 45:24

All right. Very good. Very good.

Final Charge Bible Forgiveness Self-Denial

Kerry Wood, host 45:26

Was there anything that you would like to give as your quote unquote final discourse? Jesus obviously gave us some of his most profound teachings in John 13 through 17. I'm not expecting you to do that, but is there a last word that you would like to leave us with?

David Banks 45:42

Maybe some very quick last words. First: know your Bible. We should become what we said we wanted to be. A biblical people. Biblical people read, know, inwardly assimilate and digest the Word of God. We need to know our Bibles, and as you've heard me say, we need to increase its use among us. So secondly: forgive and reconcile. And maybe the biggest surprise for me in my role and the greatest heartbreak is to discover how much unreconciled living occurs in our churches. Yes. We we pray, "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors, or forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." And then Jesus gets a commentary at the end of the Lord's Prayer saying, "And if you don't forgive, don't expect to be forgiven." And we read, "if anyone's in Christ, he's a new creature." That's 2 Corinthians 5: 17, which says we vow that that opens into the discussion of having been given a ministry of reconciliation. But if reconciliation goes this way with God, it goes this way with one another.

Kerry Wood, host 47:05

Those of you who aren't able to watch the video, David has gone up and down and then back and forth.

David Banks 47:10

Yeah, there's a vertical forgiveness, reconciliation with God, a horizontal one with others. If we really believe that we have the word of reconciliation, as 2 Corinthians 5 says, we have to practice forgiveness and reconciliation in the church. Now, Matthew 18 gives us some protocol and then follows with a parable where one has an astronomical debt and he is forgiven, the other has a modest debt and he's thrown into debtor's prison. And the one with the astronomical debt probably didn't understand total depravity. He didn't know how bad off he was, and that is a concern theologically. If we don't know how sinful we are, we will never appreciate grace. Our whole doctrine of grace hangs on a doctrine of a complete fall for which Christ is the Redeemer. But that being said, we are the debtor with the innumerable debt in Matthew 18. Our friend that we're mad at is the debtor with the trivial debt. If we expect the generosity of grace, we need - we're obligated, having received so much- to give that generosity and to forgive the people in the church that we're holding grudges against. So know our Bibles, forgive and reconcile. I've already talked about evangelism and children. John Wesley said there were three things for a church to be. His sermon on the causes of inefficacy in Christianity is a wonderful read. The first is right belief. We've gotten that; we've got our creeds, and we're working on the articles of religion. The second is discipline. Now we've got our book of doctrines and discipline, we're working on accountability. But he says, for all of that, if you don't have the third, you are in peril, and that's self-denial. The church that has not learned self-denial will be ineffective. I was reading this morning, Randy Maddox, a noted Wesleyan scholar. Dr. Maddox was writing an essay around one of Wesley's sermons that I was reading. And the essay said that Wesley left one with the impression that the real marks of the Christian life were faith, hope, love, and self-denial. We get into worship wars because we're not willing to be self-denial. Our churches don't have enough resources because we're not willing to be self-denying. People don't hear the gospel because we're not willing to be self-denying. We can't get preachers to go to some churches because we're not willing to be self-denying, and we can't get churches to pay enough for preachers because they're not willing to be self-denying. I mean, it's that the Wesley sense shows up everywhere. Know our Bibles; forgive, reconcile; offer Christ; invite the children to be in worship and sit beside you; and take up Mark chapter 8, verse 24: "If any would come after me, let him deny himself, take up the cross, and follow me." That self-denial is essential to claiming to be a disciple. Well, you know, I'll stop there. I could actually keep on going, but I will stop there.

Kerry Wood, host 50:45

Well, we'll save that for the next podcast when you come on and tell us what life is like on the other side of senior status; and you can ask us for a progress report on how well we have heeded these last words, and lived into the promise and the power of grace when we are living appropriately, accordingly, and doing this self-denying.

David Banks 51:06

Well, you know, I'm a member of the annual conference, that means I am accountable, even in senior status, and you can ask me anytime, Kerry, as can any others of you, whether I'm doing evangelism. But it also means I can ask you all the same thing.

Kerry Wood, host 51:24

That's right.

David Banks 51:25

However many years God gives me left in this life, I think I will keep asking whether we're reading our Bibles, whether we're welcoming the children, forgiving and reconciling. I'm gonna keep asking those questions.

Kerry Wood, host 51:39

That's good. We need that accountability, we need to live into that accountability. We cannot just slough it off and say, "oh, wasn't that nice?"

Prayer And Sending Blessing

Kerry Wood, host 51:50

David, may I may I pray over you?

David Banks 51:52

Thank you. I would appreciate that very much.

Kerry Wood, host 51:54

Good. Oh, Almighty God, I am so grateful that you raised up this person, this man of God, for such a time as this - to be a part of how we are being formed and being informed by your grace. God, I thank you so much for the Global Methodist Church and for our experiences here in North Carolina as part of this empowering movement of faith based on a Wesleyan tradition. But we're not worshiping Wesley, we are worshiping you; and we are just borrowing Wesley to help us see some of the ways we can do so. God, I pray that we can borrow some of the ways that David has just expressed to us and how we can do so. There is nothing that he has said that is impossible. There's nothing that he has said that is not within our reach because you have given us every good gift. Every gift of the Spirit is ours. We just need to deny ourselves to pick up that cross. Follow Jesus. So, Lord, as David moves into a new season of his ministry, may you bless him. May you bless this denomination as we move forward with the next convene- the next general conference- (about to say convening,) the next general conference coming up in Johannesburg, South Africa, for the processes that we're going through to continue to refine ourselves, to develop our models of ministry, our means of engagement. Lord, may we have that truly generous spirit to give ourselves completely into your work for your glory and praise. Thank you for David and his life of giving you glory and praise and guiding all of us. We thank you for him in Jesus' name. Amen.

David Banks 53:35

Amen. Kerry, it's a pleasure to have a few moments with you. Thank you for your service in the name of Jesus. You are a blessing.

Kerry Wood, host 53:42

Well, thank you so much. I love being able to do these kinds of conversations. And so we'll keep it up as long as the good Lord allows. And who knows, maybe you will be the the most prolific guest on Pursue Holiness in the future.

David Banks 53:54

Well, as you know, I always have opinions, so you can always check.

Kerry Wood, host 54:00

Very good. All right. Well, David, thank you so much. We look forward to being together at the annual conference. And friends, I encourage you, if you know how to express appreciation, take a few moments to do that when you see David in Winston-Salem at the Benton Convention Center, June 17 through 20. It's gonna be a wonderful time together.

David Banks 54:20

Well, Kerry, thank you. May God bless you and Deborah and all those you love.

Kerry Wood, host 54:24

Amen.

Share The Podcast And Connect

Kerry Wood, host 54:35

If you enjoyed this podcast, please take the time to share it with others. We are on Facebook, you can share it through that, or you can put anything out on X, Twitter, whatever you want to call that these days. We have PursueHoliness.org as our website. You can leave us an email at PursueHoliness@ ncglobalmethodist.org. There are many ways to reach out and engage with me. If you have ideas about a future podcast, please share that so that we can keep going with the good news of what God is doing here in North Carolina. And I look forward to seeing you next time.